Bloodline???

.REBEL

Active Member
How many actually know what a bloodline is and what traits a particular bloodline exhibits to make it a "PURE" bloodline of rabbit hound?????????
 

andrew

Caretaker
Staff member
How many actually know what a bloodline is and what traits a particular bloodline exhibits to make it a "PURE" bloodline of rabbit hound?????????
I am probably the last person to know much about breeding and DNA, etc. If I said that each breed is a bloodline, I would argue that to be correct. Unfortunately the Great Dane, Irish Wolfhound, Collie, and Jack Russell terrier are all dogs, yet man has bred each breeds characteristics into it. The beagle has scenting abilities, and has been bred to be a rabbit hunting dog.

I know that is not exactly what are you looking for, so let me say that within a breed, say our beagle hounds, we find those are very good at it, and try breed one good one to another good one. If we find hounds that have the traits we are looking for, we breed them. There is controversy with inbreeding, but I accept that every breed had to start by someone selecting the best and breeding them closely to try to achieve the goal of making the breed what they wanted it to become. In the same way, (inbreeding or close breeding) breeders will try to lock in certain traits they find valuable, and to eliminate traits they find undesirable. When does it become a bloodline? It is already a bloodline so perhaps the question should be when will it become locked in so that it breeds true to what the breeder started out trying to achieve. Only then does it become the breeders "pure" bloodline.

I will wait for your explanation and correcting my misconceptions. I know it will be interesting to read. Thanks!
 
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.REBEL

Active Member
The only pure bloodline is the Samoyed, as far as domesticated canines go, but as for canines not domesticated, there are several spread out over the globe.To my way of thinking, a bloodline is one that reproduces in like kind, same as the wild species, but being of a domesticated origin, it had to start out from unrelated and various types of hounds/canines , but thinking back so did those species of wild canines thousands of years ago as it evolved into what they are today.So my opinion, if you have a bloodline of beagle that reproduces in like kind, say like the wolf, you have a bloodline?? For example, you take a wolf and breed it to a domestic dog, and the wolf will dominate due to it's purity as a bloodline?? opinions, welcome..
 

maokusa

Well-Known Member
Staff member
At what point would you think a breeder has established a bloodline or family of hounds? Likeness in appearance would be a factor? And performance right?
 

.REBEL

Active Member
It would be like cloning, ,my opinion, you know what the offspring would be like prior to making the breeding, with very little variation from the parents, again take the wolf, that is of the wild species, there is no doubt it is going to be a wolf, maybe a slight difference in color and size, but i all respects it is going to be a wolf, from generation to generation, in our life time any how. If you want to inject certain traits into your beagle, a positive way is to know the COI of the one you want to dominate, and the one to dominate will have a much higher count of its COI than the other, if you want to duplicate the traits try to match the COI of the pair you hope to match up. It would be very informative to find out by DNA how many bluetick southern beagle hounds has the WHITENER genetics in their backgrounds, and reason is look at the COI in the Whitener blueticks and even redticks and do a research and see when others that mainly had blueticks in their kennels got started in raising the bluetick beagles.When i was looking for bluetick beagles in the early 70's i travel many,many miles and never found the first one, even Hanks JoJo blue was not impressive to me and built more like a basset hound, anyways many beaglers must have like him cause his owner producted tons of pups based on his reputation as FC.I never thought he looked like a miniature coon hound, which is what i was searching for at the time, so after many, many hours of traveling and not finding what i was in search for, i told my wife i would create my own, she said you will never do it, and my reply was, i will die and go to?? attempting to, and it took me several years and expense, but i feel i came close to accomplishing my goal, and after many litters one redtick was born in a litter, and i never had the first red beagle nor redtick in my breeding program, now in my limited number of beagles i have, most are redtick, actually it is a mutation of the bluetick, and a recent litter of four one bluetick was born, like reliving some events that took place during purifying the hounds i first set out to produce, maybe it is, the return of some past events that took place, due to the situation that has taken place in the past few years with the hounds i call my bloodline, and that may or may not be the correct terminology of it, but i think my hounds COI is way above most all other rabbit beagles and i do know they dominate when out-crossed to other beagles.Those that breed best to best i would like to see their hounds COI, would be very interesting..In matching up hounds to produce a litter of pups, one thing most miss is comparing the hounds COI, it would tell you much more than a pedigree tells you as to how the pups will mature.
 

andrew

Caretaker
Staff member
I posted this article once before and your comment was that it was not friendly to your position nor accurate.
But it is about the only thing I have that explains COI. Maybe you can educate us as to the inaccuracies, and give us a better understanding of COI.

Link to article at the bottom.

So when does COI look good? What value are you looking for in your dogs COI? Would you ever consider it too high?
How do you measure it? Saliva or blood test?

Understanding COI
 

maokusa

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I would think breeding hounds with dominant traits would be more dominant when out crossing. I know the chocolate/red and white beagles and the lemon/tan and white beagles are a recessive color when out crossed with a dominant color your not guaranteed the lemon or red color. But to me what’s interesting as long as you stay with in the family and only breed that recessive color together you will never get anything but that color.
 

.REBEL

Active Member
I posted this article once before and your comment was that it was not friendly to your position nor accurate.
But it is about the only thing I have that explains COI. Maybe you can educate us as to the inaccuracies, and give us a better understanding of COI.

Link to article at the bottom.

So when does COI look good? What value are you looking for in your dogs COI? Would you ever consider it too high?
How do you measure it? Saliva or blood test?

Understanding COI
Lot of reading in this article but if you will notice the article discriminates against a COI above 10%..great for those that want to believe in this type of false mentality, but as i have said before, the truth is what anyone wants it to be, but the facts still remain the facts..

What is the coefficient of inbreeding?
In the early 1900s, animal breeders knew that breeding related animals produced more consistent, predictable traits in the offspring, but they also found that there was some loss in vitality and vigor. Fertility was lower, offspring were smaller, early mortality was higher, lifespan was shorter - things that reduced their profit and the quality of their animals, and the higher the level of inbreeding, the greater the detrimental effects. Both the benefits and the risks of inbreeding are a consequence of homozygosity (see below). So a statistic was devised that estimated the level of inbreeding that would result from a particular cross so breeders had a quantitative way of evaluating both the risks and benefits.

From someone that has tested the water, so to speak, 10% or the level to which you begin to notice these evils, if you produce enough evils, as the article so indicates, if you create enough you will see the light of dawn blinking in the form of NO evil, you cull the evil ones off and keep ONLY the one or more and set them aside, so to speak, what you have actually done is see all the evil that lurks in hounds you chose to supply your kennel with, i know, it scares you to no end to know such lurks in your hounds, so to attempt to hide such evil you hurry about to find an out-cross so these evil spirits are covered up, but that is actually what you are doing, is covering up, cause all the bad is still lurking in your hounds,if you had selected the one or more that showed no evil traits and breed them together, and cull those few that showed up evil and continued in this path, eventually you will have culled all the bad evil ones out of your breeding stock, and if you have no evil to show up, you can't create evil..Now these are the facts, but if you are aware you have bad genetics lurking in your chosen hounds, you can chose to believe all those and all the articles that discriminate against intense inbreeding, and keep all those ghost you have in your kennel, knowing sooner or later it will shows its ugly face.

When constantly out-crossing to avoid the evil genetics, it is possible to pair those genetics up and multiply the bad you hoped to avoid.If you had sanitized your genetics by inbreeding and properly culling, you could continue to inbreed for as long as you so desired and without out-cross to invite bad genetics back into your kennel.

My hounds most likely will go 50% COI or better, and they show none of the bad/evil this article relates to.My hounds and pups are overly active, all make decent rabbit dogs, all stay lean and mean with their food bowls staying full of high protein quality food, and mixed with lots of dry cat food, which is 30% or more protein.Their life expectancy is more than the average beagle and produce litters late in life.My genetics are/were sought after by other beaglers due to the fact that others that was not as successful as i, chose to incorporate my genetics into their kennels, but by hook or crook in anyway they could, they keep it a secret, but they benefited from the corporation by improving their hounds over all hunting abilities.Guess i have said more than enough.Have a GREAT evening and remember..KNOWLEDGE is worth way more than FAME and FORTUNE!!!!!!!!
 

andrew

Caretaker
Staff member
You have a lot of knowledge about this. I now feel that I am the wrong person to have a discussion about inbreeding. Why? I challenge everything. I challenge my VET all the time. I will challenge you. I will bring up dozens of scientific studies, and that will anger you because you have an opinion already established. My opinions are not set in concrete. I need to prove it. But I see you are a pioneer. Pioneers bring change. They bring new ideas and prove out theories that everyone else thinks is incorrect. What is accepted now was once not accepted by anyone. Sometimes they are long dead before their ideas are accepted.

Perhaps the right approach is to share what you've learned in a way that others can prove it for themselves. I say that because if one researcher claims something, and no one else can duplicate that claim in their own research, it is not going anywhere.
 

andrew

Caretaker
Staff member
We follow a policy of not deleting anything. Only if a post is vulgar or inappropriately nasty or threatening would we remove it.
So we’re not deleting my or any posts in here.
But I do wish and hope that those with a background in breeding and genetics would join the discussion here with us.
I realize that while I have some opinions, I am not a geneticist. My experience with German Shepherds years ago has given me an opinion that inbreeding can be harmful, and will not end well.
As stated earlier, knowledge is important. This is why I am inviting you who are breeders to jump in.
Rebel himself wrote “opinions, welcome.“.
So share what you think. Contribute to the knowledge we all seek. Help us get back on track.
Thank you.
 

maokusa

Well-Known Member
Staff member
The purpose of any of the discussions on the forum is to get each of us to thinking and researching the subject. Everyone one of the posts here has valid content. The thing about our hounds is genetics are only a portion of the reason our hounds turn out the way they do. Environmental conditions play a large role also. Take Identical twins they may be the same in appearance but their experiences and environment make them two distinct individuals. The best hound me and my brothers have ever had the pleasure of running was raised in the country and allowed to run free. This hound in my opinion reached his full potential from getting the amount of running time he accrued. I think put in the environmental conditions we have our hounds in today. He may not have even been a hound we would keep. Because I remember him as a puppy struggling with tracks that with all the experience he got he learned to work out.
 

.REBEL

Active Member
You have a lot of knowledge about this. I now feel that I am the wrong person to have a discussion about inbreeding. Why? I challenge everything. I challenge my VET all the time. I will challenge you. I will bring up dozens of scientific studies, and that will anger you because you have an opinion already established. My opinions are not set in concrete. I need to prove it. But I see you are a pioneer. Pioneers bring change. They bring new ideas and prove out theories that everyone else thinks is incorrect. What is accepted now was once not accepted by anyone. Sometimes they are long dead before their ideas are accepted.

Perhaps the right approach is to share what you've learned in a way that others can prove it for themselves. I say that because if one researcher claims something, and no one else can duplicate that claim in their own research, it is not going anywhere.
Challenges is great and others opinions are always welcome, but express those ideas and opinions with an open mind, and hopefully all will benefit from our challenges and opinions? It is bad when your hear, read and refuse to respond respectfully to others ideas and opinions, and we all just may come away from these challenges and opinions much better off than when we entered an open discussion on what ever subject may have caught your attention with an open mind.
Some times the well education and experienced person will look to solve a problem thinking it is impossible to solve cause he was thinking on a higher level than what it took to solve the problem, when a person comes along and not thinking very hard and simply solves the ugly problem with a smile while others stand around scratching their head.
Breeding is much more of an art than a science, you have to put so many and various breeds/bloodline together to achieve your goal, like a artist has to mix colors and strokes with the right brush to achieve the title of Master Artist.We OLD,OLD farts just do not have the time to accomplish our goals, cause we are just to stupid to know when to stop and enjoy what we personally have achieved!! I know i will never stop striving to better what i have, cause my opinion is, if you are satisfied progress has stopped, but we just may influence a young person to accomplish what we started,maybe?????
 
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andrew

Caretaker
Staff member
Are you starting completely over? Or do you have some of what you produced in previous years? Why do I ask?
I guess part of the reason is how would you start from ground zero? You would probably not study pedigrees? You might as a start? But I suspect you would be selecting the next foundation hounds from what you saw running?
What would you look for? The ability to hunt, find their own rabbit? A hard hunter that isn’t going to get tired and come back to you without the rabbit? Ability to work with a pack? What would your list of desired traits have on it?
We’re not talking about COI yet. We have to get our traits locked in before we can ever even consider tightening up on them. Right?
 

andrew

Caretaker
Staff member
I think it would be educational to learn from you what you would do as a beginning.
Another thing is I like my beagles to be bold and friendly, and eager to please me. Most hunters don’t care about that as much as I do. So as stated before, every person has their list of good and bad traits.
 

.REBEL

Active Member
I think it would be educational to learn from you what you would do as a beginning.
Another thing is I like my beagles to be bold and friendly, and eager to please me. Most hunters don’t care about that as much as I do. So as stated before, every person has their list of good and bad traits.
"IF" i were to consider starting all over again, i would need tobe 25 or 30 years old again in order to have the time to select foundation stock and than years to select my hounds to create what i would consider my bloodline, there are many in the sport of beagling that has my bloodline mixed into ttheir's but the majority does not want to acknowledge it, they had rather that others think they had something to do with creating their type of bluetick beagles, so be it, but i do have enough of my bloodline to continue my genetics with a very high COI, 50 and above. I had gotten to the point my blueticks had way to much black in their body coloration, so i am going to work towards more of an open marked bluetick, i have one with all the things i like in a hound and more open spots of blue and white combination, she is a 13", lots of energy, great conformation, personally i think she is one of the best i have ever produced, so she is going to represent my future selection of my hounds.Once i produce a pup from her that resembles her coloration i will breed it back to its mother and continue to select from those and breed them together. I may or may not be successful prior to my demise, but i will make some headway in that direction..
 

.REBEL

Active Member
Are you starting completely over? Or do you have some of what you produced in previous years? Why do I ask?
I guess part of the reason is how would you start from ground zero? You would probably not study pedigrees? You might as a start? But I suspect you would be selecting the next foundation hounds from what you saw running?
What would you look for? The ability to hunt, find their own rabbit? A hard hunter that isn’t going to get tired and come back to you without the rabbit? Ability to work with a pack? What would your list of desired traits have on it?
We’re not talking about COI yet. We have to get our traits locked in before we can ever even consider tightening up on them. Right?
You got the idea and in many ways my way of thinking, and obviously we have similarity in the type hounds we prefer. I can't say when but as soon as i have my health back up to par we shall get togather and run some hounds.
 

.REBEL

Active Member
At what point would you think a breeder has established a bloodline or family of hounds? Likeness in appearance would be a factor? And performance right?
Cloning, when you know without a doubt, the coloration, size and actions, prior to delivery of a litter..than i would consider you have a bloodline? Does that match any breeder or line of beagles you have know;edge of??
 
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