• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

Possible scenario

I do not want to get into y'alls conversation, but I do have a question. Rebel, I have studying a few pedigrees that you have posted over the years. You certainly have the highest COI's that I have ever seen. Have you ever experienced birth defects or abnormalities? Everything that I have read, by scientist and genetic experts say that you run a higher risk when you get over 35 percent, some even drop the number to 25 percent.
I feel the biggest problem with others is when they start inbreeding all the bad and good comes to the top and for many they have a lot of bad show up and it scares them so they fail to cull as they should and sense much bad is showing that needs culling they stop inbreeding and it becomes a no no for them and they advertise to the world the awful creatures they created inbreeding, when if they had stuck to it and properly culled all these creatures out of their program, they would not have any bad show up, simple as that.It is hard at times to cull pups and hounds but it depends on how much you want to achieve your goal, so you do what has to be done in order to be successful!!!!
I have battled various types of defects during the years i was selection my foundation stock, but nothing i would consider serious or life threating and some once i selected the hounds to start line breding, but as i recall the worse was bowed legs and some that did not match my idea of good conformation, but i viciously culled those and chose the best to begin inbreeding, knowing if i had not done a proper job i would be facing disaster and wasted many years to get to my point of inbreeding, so i may have culled some i should not have, but i had rather have done that, than have to start all over again, so you can say i have had culls from birth to maturity that had to be eliminated in order to achieve my goal of a rabbit dog that would be a hound that i appreciated, once i got to that point i started advertising in Hounds and Hunting and during the years i enjoyed trialing and i was so assure of my hounds i always guaranteed them to make the type dog you appreciated for one year or your money back or a replacement.My last litter there was four born one, a bluetick male i lost the first night, that left me three two males and a female, sense i am planning to move back to the farm in Alabama, i transferred all my hounds to my facility there.I had the mother and three pups in a carrier to them selves, a long trip up 75 and it was raining most the way, when i got to the farm i noticed the pups all together and i felt they were dead from drowning, my wife noticed one slightly moving and dried it off and wrapped it in warm cover bundled up tight, the Vet said it did not drown but was suffering from hypothermia and gave little chance of it surviving but the next morning it was very active and playful, these were month old plus pups born 1/23/18, so i lost the two males and have the one female redtick pup that weaned its self at right at one month old and is a fire ball of activity and from all my recollections, the best produced to date, very active searching in high grass and even briars as if she is searching for a rabbit and she will be a 13" or less beagle, showing to be very intelligent and should have a strong nose and super speed. Maybe i am seeing this pup wrong, but my opinion she is going to be a super hound, so obviously in the many past years i have done something right ,for a chance???? I apologize for the history lesson..lol..lol..lol
 

maokusa

Well-Known Member
Staff member
This is one of my concerns. I've brought it up before, but regarding a physical defect that does not show up until the hound is 4 or 5 years old. I like the way my VET says it, the pups born to parents with the genes have a tendency to acquire the problem. He wants an out because every pup in that litter may not develop the problem. I would, as you do, worry especially about things like kidney failure. A seizure is in the same category, perhaps? We don't know if it is hereditary, or caused by other things. I'd certainly start questioning whether hereditary if it did not happen until 4 years old. Would it be correct to say if you've bred the dog a few times, and none of his pups have had any problems with seizures, then the cause may not be in the genes? But technically, everything is in the genes, but definitely start to look harder at genetic causes if one of the parents have a problem, and you also observe it in their offspring.
I the case with my hounds I am pretty sure it’s inherited.
 

maokusa

Well-Known Member
Staff member
In the case with my hounds I am pretty sure it’s inherited. I haven’t given up on breeding to achieve my goal but I am pretty sure intense inbreeding will only bring more defects to the surface I agree breeding is an art more than science but to me if you want to create a masterpiece you use all the colors available you don’t cut the gene pool to the point that you only have one color to work with.
 
This is one of my concerns. I've brought it up before, but regarding a physical defect that does not show up until the hound is 4 or 5 years old. I like the way my VET says it, the pups born to parents with the genes have a tendency to acquire the problem. He wants an out because every pup in that litter may not develop the problem. I would, as you do, worry especially about things like kidney failure. A seizure is in the same category, perhaps? We don't know if it is hereditary, or caused by other things. I'd certainly start questioning whether hereditary if it did not happen until 4 years old. Would it be correct to say if you've bred the dog a few times, and none of his pups have had any problems with seizures, then the cause may not be in the genes? But technically, everything is in the genes, but definitely start to look harder at genetic causes if one of the parents have a problem, and you also observe it in their offspring.
That is why it takes a life time to create a bloodline of hounds, when you least expect it, something will hit you in the face you have to deal with, but the majority just pushes it aside and not deal with it!!
Rebel, I see that you are very discriminating about the hounds you watch run. There is nothing wrong with being a tough judge, and I suppose it is because you are looking for very definite traits. In my own case, most hounds that can bring the rabbit around to me, and which I do not see them failing at checks usually can satisfy me. :)
So what specific things (traits, faults, characteristics, etc) do you see in all the hounds you observe that causes you to say you are not impressed with them? BTW, one of the fun things for me is seeing how my hounds will handle a problem. I used to have a rabbit that would climb out on a log over water, and then jump over to another log, and then slip off the log and turn away. I actually observed this, and then watched the dogs puzzle it out and get through it. Not one hound was perfect at it, and not one of them did it flawlessly, but they did work through it, and that was fun to watch. Was I impressed? No, but I was satisfied. They are supposed to work through it no matter what it takes and without quitting.

But at which point do you say that would not be acceptable to you? I am sure there is no simple answer, but it might be interesting to hear your perspective, again, on what impresses you in hound work.

I am aware of the difference between satisfied and impressed and unacceptable. There is a lot of gray in between, and it is different for each of us. :)
What impresses me is a sure nuff down to earth rabbit dog that enjoys chasing rabbits!! For most the type hound i like is to competitive.
I want a hound that has intelligence, hunt, nose power, able to air and ground scent, easy for the owner to control, all day hunt and 7 days a week if ask to, an extra active type beagle that wants the rabbit so bad nothing stands in its way, a real brush buster and jump dog, each hound working separate from the others until one jumps a rabbit and than they come together as a group.Sounds like you have some nice hounds, and as for others liking or disliking them, that would be my least of concern, as long as you enjoy them, what else matters? Some of the bloodlines i have observed, there may be some in that bloodline that would satisfy me, but as an individual they just came short of what i appreciated from that particular hound.
Not acceptable to me is, like of intelligence, no hunt, not able to ground scent and air scent and not a run the catch type hound, nor unable to run in any type environment, sand, snow, swamps, when i run hounds i do not want any that discriminates against any type rabbit or terrain or environment.
I had a long conversation with a friend the other day about the difference between being picking and simply discriminating against other bloodlines. You have to be careful to not let yourself become kennel blind because of a need to be right.
I have no problem with wanting to be right, and as for being kennel blind in my 76 years and 50 plus of those years involved with beagles and as a judge in AKC field events and having my own club in ARHA, i have seen my share of hounds from many kennels..I may not like hounds from other kennels nor like them well enough to watch after their well being..but as long as they belong to others why should i care, they are not my responsibility. I may comment if i have ran with their pack and they may comment to me about my pack, and i will comment about other hounds i have ran with , or had in my kennel.The majority of others that comment about my hounds has never seen nor ran with them, only have seen my comments on various beagle boards so they judge my hounds on what they think of me, and sense i am upfront and to the point, about my bloodline, why should others care, i guess it is good conversation..LOL..LOL..LOL
 
You are so right, and i at the beginning had so many hounds of different bloodlines it was more than a full time chore and eventually by combining all these various bloodlines and years of selecting i final have my bloodline that i am more than satisfied with, may not anyone else care for them but they suite me to a T!!
 

maokusa

Well-Known Member
Staff member
You are so right, and i at the beginning had so many hounds of different bloodlines it was more than a full time chore and eventually by combining all these various bloodlines and years of selecting i final have my bloodline that i am more than satisfied with, may not anyone else care for them but they suite me to a T!!
It’s true I haven’t seen your hounds. I would have a different opinion of your comments if that wasn’t a mystery I am sure. I hope someday to feel I have reached my goal must be nice!
 
It’s true I haven’t seen your hounds. I would have a different opinion of your comments if that wasn’t a mystery I am sure. I hope someday to feel I have reached my goal must be nice!
Not really that nice, it keeps going over and over in your head the mistakes i may have made and how i could have done thing different and maybe not had to spend as much time as i have and just maybe there was a bloodline out there somewhere that i could have enjoyed and contributed the years doing other things than attempting to perfect a rabbit dog, facts are, every weekend the wife and i would travel in search of the type beagle i was searching for, and after many weekends on end, like a year or so..i finally told my wife i would create my own hounds, she said i would never do it, and that just gave me more determination, so i told her i would die and go to ??? attempting..it has been a long, long enduring trip and still i think i can improve and with each and every litter i am hoping i have improved, and only time will tell, and eventually my time will run out.At 76 maybe 5 more years or 10 or 15 but if it is a living thing, eventually the curtains are drawn, the shades are lowered, and we are in the hereafter, and the last three years has worked on me and my hounds the worse, with the help of Doctors here in Florida my health has took a nose dive and my hounds basically been at a stand still, but i have been able to located and buy back some of my bloodline from others, so maybe all has not been at a lost.maybe???
 
Last edited:

Poorboy

Active Member
Please don't think that my comment about being kennel blind was necessarily aimed at anyone in particular. I also have judged multiple formats for more years than I care to admit. It is human nature to like what you have invested time in and feel invested in. Very few people can set aside pride.
 
One of the main reasons i feel having a friendly get together and run hounds, we get to meet the people we have for some time only meet by way of typed words on a computer, and we get to understand better the type hounds they enjoy, and for the most part, i think we come away with a better feeling of the person and their hounds.
 
Thread starter #31

andrew

Caretaker
Staff member
I'd like to come run with you sometime, but good luck at getting a group together unless they are all in your neighborhood. Too many people work for a living or have other obligations.

This has become a busy thread. One thing I was thinking. In nature, there is quite a bit of natural inbreeding. Nature seems to produce good stock so to speak. There is still out-crossing naturally too, yes? But over years and years, certain animals don't migrate far? The wolves in the woods, aren't they the offspring of ancestors that were there 100 years ago? Unless they became extinct, and someone brought some new stock in, they are all related. But then I don't know fully the habits of wolves. Perhaps they do migrate out and away?
 

Poorboy

Active Member
The key difference is the entire natural selection process. Many beagles are coddled. Never testing why has gameness, stamina or true brains. A dumb, weak or lazy wolf does not live to reproduce.